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Ron Site
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Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:29 pm Post
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By jimkrauzlis
I have
enjoyed reading this thread for a few days now. I stumbled
across it earlier this week and was thrilled to see such
outstanding work on a sailing ship of war. I have been
building wooden ship models for quite some time now, way too
long to really want to admit, and started paper modeling over
the last two years. I am still learning, and very much
appreciate this thread because I wanted to try and build a
sailing warship at some point. Where does one find this
Shipyard kit of the HMS Victory? The only place I found so far
is the manufacturer's site, but I couldn't make head or tails
on how to order; probably can't anyway, as I have found out on
other overseas sites, unless you place a very large order to
make it worth their while. :-/ Anyone know of a US company
that stocks this kit or the other Shipyard kits? Thanks so
much for sharing your outstanding work, and all the best to
all for the New Year! I am really looking forward to seeing
how you guys tackle the masts, yards and rigging.
Jim | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:30 pm Post
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By Gil
Jim,
Welcome aboard..., try here:
http://www.papermodels.net/
Best
regards, Gil
P.S. The masts and spars will be the easy
part. Standing and Running rigging will be the real divining.
----- I Got Carded! | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:31 pm Post
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By Larrymax
Ok, so,
we loose one to plastic (oh, Tim.......come back to us,
brother!) But we gain a new Mate! Welcome aboard Jim. I, too
have been building wooden ship models for many years. As a
matter of fact, once they're back in stock, I'm getting the
Model Shipways USS Constitution for my Christmast present.
(Don't worry gang, I promise not to start her until we finish
Cleopatra!) I can't wait...in the mean time I've been
collecting books and reading everything I can get my hands on
about her. As for how I managed to get my HMS Cleopatra, one
of the members/designers of our forums here was kind enough to
order her for me when he placed a large order from Shipyard.
Saved me tons in shipping charges.
Well, on to last
nights progress. I finished the hull planking on Cleo and then
found Part #83...(after much searching of all the parts
sheets....seems they forgot to list it in the illustrations!)
Turns out to be the aft planking with a couple of little gun
ports. Also turns out to be Brown! Now I'm REALLY confussed!
Is the yellow supposed to be brown? Is the brown supposed to
be gray? Is the gray supposed to be black? I have some
decisions to make very quickly, before I can move forward.
Well, have to go ashore now and do a few things at my
real job. We're off at noon today so maybe I'll be able to do
some more work on Cleo this afternoon.
Have a Great
New Year's Eve! PLEASE, be safe.....I want to see you all back
aboard tomorrow!
Larry Captain, HMS Cleopatra
Paper Navy of the Bear Flag Republic | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:32 pm Post
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By jimkrauzlis
Thanks, Gil! I finally found her on the "Specials"
page; hadn't seen her in the main catalog, but DUH! there is
she. Putting in my order this week. Meanwhile, I have this
Maly Modelarz HMS Bounty sitting around. Maybe I will cut my
teeth on her before taking on Victory. I've also been playing
around with a 1:200 USS Constitution from Wilhelmshaven, a
waterline kit, but I want to redo the hull. It's on a CD, and
when I printed her out the first time my printer left much to
be desired. Now I have a better printer and have re-printed
her. There were a few things I learned in the first build I
hope to improve upon the second time around. As I mentioned,
I'm a novice at paper models, but catching on little by
little. That's what's great about paper models, you can
usually reprint and correct your mistakes. And I have made a few!
Larry, I have the MS Constitution kit, she's a beaut! Big
too! There is a very nice practicum out there by Bob Hunt
showing how to build her, and he goes a bit beyond the MS
plans and instructions, very VERY helpful building aid!
Constitution is my favorite sailing ship, and I have taken
quite a bit of time doing research on her, both past and
current configurations, so if you need any information I might
be able to help, or at least can suggest where to go to get
the answers. The MS kit is very well done document-wise, but
Ben Lankford, who designed the kit, put together a rigging
plan that deviates a bit from the current configuration, since
he wanted a full set of sails and she doesn't carry them yet.
He also made the rigging plan as if she was an actual working
sailing ship of war, which she is not; this makes a difference
in some of the head rigging and running rigging...but we can
talk about that more when the time comes. Thinking of
getting back to the WHSVN Constitution this Holiday weekend,
if my 5 3/4 year old daughter will let me have some "Daddy
Time".
Well, got to get back to work, but looking forward to the
updates! Happy New Year, everyone!!! Jim | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:32 pm Post
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By wunwinglow
Don't
worry Larry, I'm still here. I wouldn't miss this for
anything. Consider me detached from the convoy, but I'm just
over the horizon, zigging while you lot zag. I can still see
your smoke!
Tim ----- Lots of Projects, but
don't hold your breath.... | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:33 pm Post
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By maurice
Larry
The yellow stripe of the gunports was not continued
across the stern so I suggest black for all of #83.
Jim
Welcome, I did suspect some people might
have heard of the USS Constitution.
Tim
Zig-zagging of convoys was not introduced until the
advent of infernal submersible devices in a later age. I
suggest we license you under the Convoy Act 1793 and the
Convoy Control Act 1798 as a "runner" permitted to make
unescorted sailings.
Happy New Year all
Maurice | |
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:41 pm Post
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By larrymax
Captains
Log December 31, 2003 (6 hours till 2004!)
Installed the Keel and Bow Post this afternoon. The
Bow Post is made of three layers of press board (1/8" thick) I
glued them together, aligned them carefully, then put them
under a 40 pound speaker to dry! Maybe a bit of overkill on
the pressing....but I surely don't want things coming apart
some time later, plus I want it to be able to stand up to some
light sanding for the final finish.
The Bow section took
a bit of sanding and trimming (dry fit, sand, dry fit, sand,
etc.....) to mate up perfectly with the curvature of the hull,
but I finally got it. Once I got it glued up, I sat there
holding it in place for a solid five minutes until I was good
and sure the glue was set. Fortunately, the hull structure is
VERY strong and tollerated quit a bit of pressure while I was
holding it in place. I would put this hull up against any wood
ship hull I've built as far as strength and stiffness
goes!...and that's saying quit a bit!
Also, I brought home
some paint and brushes this evening. I'm pretty sure this
puppy's gonna get a coat or two of paint.....and if I'm going
to paint her, I may just put some putty on the hull to smooth
things out nicely. We'll see.
Well that's it for this
evening...time to get ready to "Ring in the new year"! See
ya next year!
Larry Captain, HMS Cleopatra
Paper Navy of the Bear Flag Republic
HAPPY NEW YEAR Welcome to
2004! Hope you all had a Great New Year's Eve. I had a really
nice dinner with Janine (my wife) and some good friends. Got
home just in time to see the ball drop in Time Square! Managed
to drag my rear end out of bed at a fairly reasonable hour
this morning so I could work on Cleo (I am SOOOOO addicted!).
This morning I thought I'd do something a little
different. We are going to have a step-by-step walk through of
the Assembly and Installation of her Rudder! I know, I know,
it just sends shivers down your spine! Me too! (hehehe!) So,
without further ado,.....The Rudder:
Step 1: Here are
the four individual parts that make up the rudder. I've glued
them to 1/16th inch (when assembled they will be 1/8" thick)
illustration board and begun trimming them out. I ran through
about 5 exacto blades trimming the eight hinge holes out!
Step
2: The rudder halves are glued together and placed under the
40 pound speaker to dry to insure they remaing flat and dry
really strong with no gaps.
Step 3: I sand all
the edges using an emery board (fingernail file). I've got 4
different emery boards with different grits and in different
sizes. I find I use them all the time! The do a great job of
sanding edges nice and square. I lay the emery board up
against the edge of my cutting board, press the part up to it,
then just run the emery board back and forth using the cutting
mat as a guide. Voila! Nice clean, square edges and full
control of how much material comes off. I use Mini-Files for
getting into all the small hinge cutouts to clean them up.
Picked up a set of 6 in different shapes for about 3 bucks at
the local hardware store.
Step 4: Dry Fit.
Notice that the part (whithout being forced! NEVER Force a
part into place!) doesn't quite fit right. With more sanding
and fitting and sanding and fitting, the part finally tucked
up just like it's supposed to
Step 5: Final Fit
and Glue. Once the rudder was glued in place and allowed to
dry well, I sanded the bottom of it to align with the bottom
of the keel. That's it! Next, I think it's going to be time to
paint the hull. I'm 95% sure I'm going to make the yellow,
brown, repaint the gray, black, and give the rest of the hull
a coat or two of white to finish it up.
Well, that's
it for this morning. Time for some lunch. Have a great day!
Larry Captain, HMS Cleopatra P.N.O.T.B.F.R. :
)
Ladies and Gentlemen, may I present H.M.S.
Cleopatra!
Larry Captain, HMS Cleopatra Paper
Navy of the Bear Flag Republic | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:41 pm Post
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By Peter H
Cleo is
gorgeous Larry....
Many thanks again for putting the
photos and text up.
Curiosity being what it is I have
some questions....
1)We all know it's a bottle of
champers on the bow to send a ship off these days but what did
they do in Victorie's and Cleopatra's time I wonder ???
2)There is a story that lower gun decks in english
Man'O'Wars was painted red to keep the men focused and the
rate of fire up no matter how gory they ended up. Is it true
or an urban myth? | |
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:42 pm Post
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By Larrymax
I'd like
to share a couple of questions, and my thoughts on the
answers, submitted to me from one of our newest posters, Jim.
Thanks for your support Jim..... : )
Q. "When you
build up the egg crate framing, use laminate with a harder
cardstock, right? What is the size you like, 1.5mm?" A. I
mentioned early in the thread that the bulkhead are mounted to
"chipboard"....I got a good deal on a bunch of pads at
WalMart, tore off the backing board and chucked out the paper!
(hehehe...still a better deal than trying to find and buy
chipboard alone!). The Bulkheads were printed from the scanned
the original parts (in case I screwed up!), then cut and glued
(Super 77 spray glue) to the chipboard which is slightly under
1/16" thick. The center board(s), are cold press illustration
board, 1/8" thick. Very rigid!
Q. Is there
anything else you do to the cardstock to allows you to sand
it? A. No. I just go carefully and slowly. If the board
started to separate, I touched it up with a little Elmers,
pressed it back together, and worked on something else until
it was really dry before trying to sand it again. Really,
there is not much sanding required. The fit is pretty good in
general...there's always exceptions!
Q. Any tips you
might have in building the frame would be appreciated. A.
Make VERY SURE all the intersections of the vertical bulkheads
and the horizontal formers mate up PERFECTLY! And that none of
the bulkheads or formers protrude out farther than they are
supposed to. Unlike wood ships where you can sand away these
inconsistancies, there is precious little room for sanding the
paper models without creating holes in your hull after you've
put the "skin" on! Also, work hard at not letting the paper go
"flat" between the bulkheads It was dificult, later, to try
and get the hull not to look like an under fed dog, with all
her ribs showing! Thank goodness for spackle!
Larry
Captain and still wondering where the HECK everyone is!
HMS Cleopatra Paper Navy of the Bear Flag Republic
P.S. I've also been informed that my Cleo's, now brown
gun port stripe, should actually be Yellow Ochre! Oh
well....back to the drawing board! | |
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:42 pm Post
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By cardfan
You can
find chipboard at paper suppliers like Kelly Paper. It is not
that expensive and I believe you can even get it with one side
coated in a smooth finish. I should have used this for the
underside of the deck shelter decking. I will be doing some
more work soon but New Years and my 17th anniversery seem to
have gotten in the way.
Glen Captain, USS Oregon
BB3 P.N.B.F.R. | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:43 pm Post
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By Gil
Hello All,
Larry, earlier I mentioned Chromium Yellow..., it's
not Chromium but Cadmium Yellow that's what was used on the
original. DO NOT, REPEAT, DO NOT buy the kind that actually
has Cadmium in it (yes it is still sold) as it is a nasty
heavy metal toxin that's best to be avoided at all costs. The
ersatz Cadmium Yellow suffices just fine. In fact it's almost
a Turners Yellow, maybe, a shade in between the two. There are
two shades of black, Ivory and Mars Black. Ivory is made from
the remains of burnt animal bones and the makeup of Mars Black
escapes me..., Ivory Black is preferred even if the name Mars
Black sounds great. The results desired will need an eggshell
clear coat after application of paint and that's pretty much
it.
Remember that in the time of these ships the paint
budget came out of the Captain's pay. Captains soon learned
that the required monthly gunnery practice was very caustic on
the enamel (and made a bloody awful mess of afternoon tea
besides) soon went to sea for gunnery practice and simply
dumped overboard the necessary amount of powder and shot
before making the evening tide back in. Such is human nature.
Best regards, Gil
[Edited by Gil on
2004-01-03 4:54 AM]
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:43 pm Post
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By Gil
Larry,
As an addendum to my last a little research has proved
the following...,
Prior to 1815 the painting of the
ships hull was pretty much left to the whim of the Captain.
The HMS Victory was painted black with yellow bands at the
Battle of Trafalgar and I intend to maintain those colors.
Suppose you'll have to do a little research on the HMS
Cleopatra as regards her paint. She wasn't at Trafalgar where
Yellow and Black banding seems to have been in vogue as many
of the historic paintings of the battle show the Men'O'War
painted in a similar manner (kind of like Sting's sweater
which gave him the name).
Best regards, Gil
P.S. This is one reason I do research on the target
model before beginning to ascertain whether there's enough
information to adequately portray the subject at a particular
period if not place and better yet battle.
[Edited by Gil on
2004-01-03 4:46 AM]
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:43 pm Post
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By maurice
Gil
Your sources appear singularly ill informed. I
will not be commenting further on this thread since it is
impossible to counter missinformation as quickly as it can be
generated.
Maurice | |
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:44 pm Post
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By Gil
Maurice,
Sorry for the offense and please accept my apologies.
I'll be quiet if you'd enlighten us as to what information was
misinforming.
Best regards, Gil ----- I Got
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:44 pm Post
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By jimkrauzlis
I for
one would like to know more about the color scheme of the
British sailing men of war for the period 1776 to 1820, if
that is at all possible. I recall at some point the Nelson
scheme was all the rage, but I don't know when that occurred.
(By this I mean the yellow ochre with black gun port lids,
assuming that is the correct description). I don't know if the
Cleopatra falls within that time period and would like someone
who knows to share their knowledge, if possible.
Jim | |
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