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To Build A Ship....the HMS Victory and Cleopatra
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Ron
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By jimkrauzlis

I have enjoyed reading this thread for a few days now. I stumbled across it earlier this week and was thrilled to see such outstanding work on a sailing ship of war. I have been building wooden ship models for quite some time now, way too long to really want to admit, and started paper modeling over the last two years. I am still learning, and very much appreciate this thread because I wanted to try and build a sailing warship at some point. Where does one find this Shipyard kit of the HMS Victory? The only place I found so far is the manufacturer's site, but I couldn't make head or tails on how to order; probably can't anyway, as I have found out on other overseas sites, unless you place a very large order to make it worth their while. :-/
Anyone know of a US company that stocks this kit or the other Shipyard kits?
Thanks so much for sharing your outstanding work, and all the best to all for the New Year! I am really looking forward to seeing how you guys tackle the masts, yards and rigging. Smile
Jim
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Gil

Jim,

Welcome aboard..., try here:

http://www.papermodels.net/

Best regards, Gil

P.S. The masts and spars will be the easy part. Standing and Running rigging will be the real divining.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Larrymax

Ok, so, we loose one to plastic (oh, Tim.......come back to us, brother!) But we gain a new Mate! Welcome aboard Jim. I, too have been building wooden ship models for many years. As a matter of fact, once they're back in stock, I'm getting the Model Shipways USS Constitution for my Christmast present. (Don't worry gang, I promise not to start her until we finish Cleopatra!) I can't wait...in the mean time I've been collecting books and reading everything I can get my hands on about her. As for how I managed to get my HMS Cleopatra, one of the members/designers of our forums here was kind enough to order her for me when he placed a large order from Shipyard. Saved me tons in shipping charges.

Well, on to last nights progress. I finished the hull planking on Cleo and then found Part #83...(after much searching of all the parts sheets....seems they forgot to list it in the illustrations!) Turns out to be the aft planking with a couple of little gun ports. Also turns out to be Brown! Now I'm REALLY confussed! Is the yellow supposed to be brown? Is the brown supposed to be gray? Is the gray supposed to be black? I have some decisions to make very quickly, before I can move forward.



Well, have to go ashore now and do a few things at my real job. We're off at noon today so maybe I'll be able to do some more work on Cleo this afternoon.

Have a Great New Year's Eve! PLEASE, be safe.....I want to see you all back aboard tomorrow!

Larry
Captain, HMS Cleopatra
Paper Navy of the Bear Flag Republic
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By jimkrauzlis

Thanks, Gil!
I finally found her on the "Specials" page; hadn't seen her in the main catalog, but DUH! there is she. Putting in my order this week.
Meanwhile, I have this Maly Modelarz HMS Bounty sitting around. Maybe I will cut my teeth on her before taking on Victory. I've also been playing around with a 1:200 USS Constitution from Wilhelmshaven, a waterline kit, but I want to redo the hull. It's on a CD, and when I printed her out the first time my printer left much to be desired. Now I have a better printer and have re-printed her. There were a few things I learned in the first build I hope to improve upon the second time around. As I mentioned, I'm a novice at paper models, but catching on little by little. That's what's great about paper models, you can usually reprint and correct your mistakes. Smile And I have made a few!
Larry, I have the MS Constitution kit, she's a beaut! Big too!
There is a very nice practicum out there by Bob Hunt showing how to build her, and he goes a bit beyond the MS plans and instructions, very VERY helpful building aid! Constitution is my favorite sailing ship, and I have taken quite a bit of time doing research on her, both past and current configurations, so if you need any information I might be able to help, or at least can suggest where to go to get the answers. The MS kit is very well done document-wise, but Ben Lankford, who designed the kit, put together a rigging plan that deviates a bit from the current configuration, since he wanted a full set of sails and she doesn't carry them yet. He also made the rigging plan as if she was an actual working sailing ship of war, which she is not; this makes a difference in some of the head rigging and running rigging...but we can talk about that more when the time comes.
Thinking of getting back to the WHSVN Constitution this Holiday weekend, if my 5 3/4 year old daughter will let me have some "Daddy Time". Smile
Well, got to get back to work, but looking forward to the updates!
Happy New Year, everyone!!!
Jim
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By wunwinglow

Don't worry Larry, I'm still here. I wouldn't miss this for anything. Consider me detached from the convoy, but I'm just over the horizon, zigging while you lot zag. I can still see your smoke!

Tim
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By maurice

Larry

The yellow stripe of the gunports was not continued across the stern so I suggest black for all of #83.

Jim

Welcome, I did suspect some people might have heard of the USS Constitution. Smile

Tim

Zig-zagging of convoys was not introduced until the advent of infernal submersible devices in a later age.
I suggest we license you under the Convoy Act 1793 and the Convoy Control Act 1798 as a "runner" permitted to make unescorted sailings.

Happy New Year all
Maurice
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By larrymax

Captains Log
December 31, 2003 (6 hours till 2004!)

Installed the Keel and Bow Post this afternoon. The Bow Post is made of three layers of press board (1/8" thick) I glued them together, aligned them carefully, then put them under a 40 pound speaker to dry! Maybe a bit of overkill on the pressing....but I surely don't want things coming apart some time later, plus I want it to be able to stand up to some light sanding for the final finish.



The Bow section took a bit of sanding and trimming (dry fit, sand, dry fit, sand, etc.....) to mate up perfectly with the curvature of the hull, but I finally got it. Once I got it glued up, I sat there holding it in place for a solid five minutes until I was good and sure the glue was set. Fortunately, the hull structure is VERY strong and tollerated quit a bit of pressure while I was holding it in place. I would put this hull up against any wood ship hull I've built as far as strength and stiffness goes!...and that's saying quit a bit!



Also, I brought home some paint and brushes this evening. I'm pretty sure this puppy's gonna get a coat or two of paint.....and if I'm going to paint her, I may just put some putty on the hull to smooth things out nicely. We'll see.

Well that's it for this evening...time to get ready to "Ring in the new year"!
See ya next year!

Larry
Captain, HMS Cleopatra
Paper Navy of the Bear Flag Republic

HAPPY NEW YEAR
Welcome to 2004! Hope you all had a Great New Year's Eve. I had a really nice dinner with Janine (my wife) and some good friends. Got home just in time to see the ball drop in Time Square! Managed to drag my rear end out of bed at a fairly reasonable hour this morning so I could work on Cleo (I am SOOOOO addicted!).

This morning I thought I'd do something a little different. We are going to have a step-by-step walk through of the Assembly and Installation of her Rudder! I know, I know, it just sends shivers down your spine! Me too! (hehehe!) So, without further ado,.....The Rudder:




Step 1: Here are the four individual parts that make up the rudder. I've glued them to 1/16th inch (when assembled they will be 1/8" thick) illustration board and begun trimming them out. I ran through about 5 exacto blades trimming the eight hinge holes out!



Step 2: The rudder halves are glued together and placed under the 40 pound speaker to dry to insure they remaing flat and dry really strong with no gaps.



Step 3: I sand all the edges using an emery board (fingernail file). I've got 4 different emery boards with different grits and in different sizes. I find I use them all the time! The do a great job of sanding edges nice and square. I lay the emery board up against the edge of my cutting board, press the part up to it, then just run the emery board back and forth using the cutting mat as a guide. Voila! Nice clean, square edges and full control of how much material comes off. I use Mini-Files for getting into all the small hinge cutouts to clean them up. Picked up a set of 6 in different shapes for about 3 bucks at the local hardware store.



Step 4: Dry Fit. Notice that the part (whithout being forced! NEVER Force a part into place!) doesn't quite fit right. With more sanding and fitting and sanding and fitting, the part finally tucked up just like it's supposed to



Step 5: Final Fit and Glue. Once the rudder was glued in place and allowed to dry well, I sanded the bottom of it to align with the bottom of the keel. That's it! Next, I think it's going to be time to paint the hull. I'm 95% sure I'm going to make the yellow, brown, repaint the gray, black, and give the rest of the hull a coat or two of white to finish it up.

Well, that's it for this morning. Time for some lunch. Have a great day!
Larry
Captain, HMS Cleopatra
P.N.O.T.B.F.R.
: )


Ladies and Gentlemen, may I present H.M.S. Cleopatra!




Larry
Captain, HMS Cleopatra
Paper Navy of the Bear Flag Republic
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Peter H

Cleo is gorgeous Larry....

Many thanks again for putting the photos and text up.

Curiosity being what it is I have some questions....

1)We all know it's a bottle of champers on the bow to send a ship off these days but what did they do in Victorie's and Cleopatra's time I wonder ???

2)There is a story that lower gun decks in english Man'O'Wars was painted red to keep the men focused and the rate of fire up no matter how gory they ended up. Is it true or an urban myth?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Larrymax

I'd like to share a couple of questions, and my thoughts on the answers, submitted to me from one of our newest posters, Jim. Thanks for your support Jim..... : )

Q. "When you build up the egg crate framing, use laminate with a harder cardstock, right? What is the size you like, 1.5mm?"
A. I mentioned early in the thread that the bulkhead are mounted to "chipboard"....I got a good deal on a bunch of pads at WalMart, tore off the backing board and chucked out the paper! (hehehe...still a better deal than trying to find and buy chipboard alone!). The Bulkheads were printed from the scanned the original parts (in case I screwed up!), then cut and glued (Super 77 spray glue) to the chipboard which is slightly under 1/16" thick. The center board(s), are cold press illustration board, 1/8" thick. Very rigid!


Q. Is there anything else you do to the cardstock to allows you to sand it?
A. No. I just go carefully and slowly. If the board started to separate, I touched it up with a little Elmers, pressed it back together, and worked on something else until it was really dry before trying to sand it again. Really, there is not much sanding required. The fit is pretty good in general...there's always exceptions!

Q. Any tips you might have in building the frame would be appreciated.
A. Make VERY SURE all the intersections of the vertical bulkheads and the horizontal formers mate up PERFECTLY! And that none of the bulkheads or formers protrude out farther than they are supposed to. Unlike wood ships where you can sand away these inconsistancies, there is precious little room for sanding the paper models without creating holes in your hull after you've put the "skin" on! Also, work hard at not letting the paper go "flat" between the bulkheads It was dificult, later, to try and get the hull not to look like an under fed dog, with all her ribs showing! Thank goodness for spackle!

Larry
Captain and still wondering where the HECK everyone is!
HMS Cleopatra
Paper Navy of the Bear Flag Republic

P.S. I've also been informed that my Cleo's, now brown gun port stripe, should actually be Yellow Ochre! Oh well....back to the drawing board!
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By cardfan

You can find chipboard at paper suppliers like Kelly Paper. It is not that expensive and I believe you can even get it with one side coated in a smooth finish. I should have used this for the underside of the deck shelter decking. I will be doing some more work soon but New Years and my 17th anniversery seem to have gotten in the way.

Glen
Captain, USS Oregon BB3
P.N.B.F.R.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Gil

Hello All,

Larry, earlier I mentioned Chromium Yellow..., it's not Chromium but Cadmium Yellow that's what was used on the original. DO NOT, REPEAT, DO NOT buy the kind that actually has Cadmium in it (yes it is still sold) as it is a nasty heavy metal toxin that's best to be avoided at all costs. The ersatz Cadmium Yellow suffices just fine. In fact it's almost a Turners Yellow, maybe, a shade in between the two. There are two shades of black, Ivory and Mars Black. Ivory is made from the remains of burnt animal bones and the makeup of Mars Black escapes me..., Ivory Black is preferred even if the name Mars Black sounds great. The results desired will need an eggshell clear coat after application of paint and that's pretty much it.

Remember that in the time of these ships the paint budget came out of the Captain's pay. Captains soon learned that the required monthly gunnery practice was very caustic on the enamel (and made a bloody awful mess of afternoon tea besides) soon went to sea for gunnery practice and simply dumped overboard the necessary amount of powder and shot before making the evening tide back in. Such is human nature.

Best regards, Gil

[Edited by Gil on 2004-01-03 4:54 AM]

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Gil

Larry,

As an addendum to my last a little research has proved the following...,

Prior to 1815 the painting of the ships hull was pretty much left to the whim of the Captain. The HMS Victory was painted black with yellow bands at the Battle of Trafalgar and I intend to maintain those colors. Suppose you'll have to do a little research on the HMS Cleopatra as regards her paint. She wasn't at Trafalgar where Yellow and Black banding seems to have been in vogue as many of the historic paintings of the battle show the Men'O'War painted in a similar manner (kind of like Sting's sweater which gave him the name).

Best regards, Gil

P.S. This is one reason I do research on the target model before beginning to ascertain whether there's enough information to adequately portray the subject at a particular period if not place and better yet battle.

[Edited by Gil on 2004-01-03 4:46 AM]

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By maurice

Gil

Your sources appear singularly ill informed.
I will not be commenting further on this thread since it is impossible to counter missinformation as quickly as it can be generated.

Maurice
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Gil

Maurice,

Sorry for the offense and please accept my apologies. I'll be quiet if you'd enlighten us as to what information was misinforming.

Best regards, Gil
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By jimkrauzlis

I for one would like to know more about the color scheme of the British sailing men of war for the period 1776 to 1820, if that is at all possible. I recall at some point the Nelson scheme was all the rage, but I don't know when that occurred. (By this I mean the yellow ochre with black gun port lids, assuming that is the correct description). I don't know if the Cleopatra falls within that time period and would like someone who knows to share their knowledge, if possible.
Jim
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