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To Build A Ship....the HMS Victory and Cleopatra
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Ron
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By maurice

>>I'll be quiet if you'd enlighten us as to what information was misinforming.<<


Frankly I doubt it. Smile
However, to cover one point.
Your source's ideas on the "fad" colouring of RN ships prior to 1815 is absolute drivel.
The scheme to be used was specified in Admiralty instructions.
There were variations in implementation of the pattern and in the tonal qualities due to availability of paint and weathering.
To be of value research needs to be with reference to, and involve the interpretation of, multiple sources.
Some sources should be discarded on sight. Smile
In fact we only have reliable information on how most ships were coloured that covers the last 50 years, and even then colour photography can let us down badly.


Jim

Not sure of the exact date by which the colour scheme had been settled on, but as she spanned the period 1781 to 1814 Cleopatra was I suspect copper sheathed from the start and basically would have carried the paint scheme throughout her life.

Much of interest at
http://www.hms-victory.com/home.htm
(who also seem to have heard of the USS Constitution. Smile )
http://www.hms-victory.com/modelmakers.htm
click on
Colour Scheme for HMS Victory

And no, I don't claim to know all the answers - I wasn't there. Smile

Maurice


Oh, and here's a simpler paper model for the "Victory" challenged Smile
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/site/navId/00500300l00a001
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Gil

To All,


Originally written by maurice on 2004-01-03 8:03 PM

>>I'll be quiet if you'd enlighten us as to what information was misinforming.<<


Frankly I doubt it. Smile
However, to cover one point.
Your source's ideas on the "fad" colouring of RN ships prior to 1815 is absolute drivel.

The quote comes from John McKay's book, The 100-Gun Ship Victory, Revised Edition, Published by Conway Maritime Press, 2000, page 12, Decoration, paragrah 5, "Prior to 1815, painting the hulls of ships was pretty much determined by the whim and resources of her commander. At Trafalgar, Vitory's hull was black with three continous streaks of bright yellow running roughly between her wales. Her gunports were painted red inside, as were the insides of the gunport lids.".

Just can't depend on anything printed on paper anymore I guess...,

Best regards, Gil




[Edited by Gil on 2004-01-04 12:31 AM]

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By cardfan

This has been an interesting thread and informative build, could we get back to enjoying the art in progress? I know that there are always differing opinions as to the "facts" reguarding historical objects, but is it that important in this forum? Just a question.

Glen
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By jimkrauzlis

Thanks so much, Maurice!
I didn't notice any copper sheathing on the Cleopatra model, at least none that I could tell from the photos I have seen; it seems the kit designers have opted for a tallow bottom coating. This suggests the publisher was following an earlier scheme before copper was commonly used, which I believe to be from around 1775 or later. I tried to find some specific color scheme info on Cleo and drew a big blank. I understand the British warships prior to 1798 or thereabouts generally painted their hulls yellow ochre with black wales, with white or coppered bottoms below the waterline; whether or not this was mandated by the Admiralty, I don't know, nor do I know whether some Captains did not follow the scheme because of supply problems, weathering or whim. I suppose the important question for this thread, however, is what color scheme should be used for Cleo. I would think yellow ochre above the wales, black wales and either copper or white below the waterline. Yep, that's a generalization, but I have seen nothing to give more specific guidance for this particular vessel. Are there any Admiralty instructions for, say, the 1780's that might guide us further?
And, yes, I suspect the Admiralty had heard of Constitution. Smile
I recall Nelson had a chance to see Constitution on her return from the Barbary Wars, around 1805 or so, commenting on her fine lines and lamenting the British would one day have to face them in battle.
Jim
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By maurice

Gil

>>painting the hulls of ships was pretty much determined by the whim and resources of her commander<<

I certainly don't blame John McKay for not including the caveat "within guidelines" at that point. It would be an overlong and boring book if he had to cover every possible miss-interpretation of what he wrote.
Black with yellow banding was the standard not the vogue. Painting of details (and bandwidth) might vary.
"Think about that a little harder" (as our bundle dropping low flying hampster might say Smile ).
The ships at Trafalgar were in effect a random selection from the Royal Navy. None arrived on the scene with pink polka dots. (Or if they did, artists of the time failed to record it.)
But I agree with Glen.

Maurice
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Larrymax

Well, well, well. Quit the little discussion we have goin on out here on the poop deck! After listening to all your thoughts (and I do appreciate all the input!), I've come to a decision on Cleo's color scheme. I did a little of my own research over at Model Expo and had a look at the British ships from around the same time as Cleo....Here's what I found:


HMS Bounty


HMS Halifax


HMS Victory


HMS Unicorn

The way I figure is that the people who built these ships had a lot more time and resources than I have and did a lot of research and came up with the conclusion that yellow ochre stripes were all the rage for English Men-o-War of that era.....so, who am I...sitting here in my kitchen in Corona, to argue! Besides, I LIKE the color scheme....it makes my model look NICE....SO THERE! Where the designers over at Shipyard got the brown color as shown on the cover is anyone's guess!

So, I spent last night, a bit of this morning, and most of this afternoon and evening sanding and puttying and re-painting Cleo.....!!! Thank you for all your input and research on the subject! Now, without further ado.....I am proud to present HMS Cleopatra (again)....


HMS Cleopatra

Larry
Captain and Holder of the Paintbrushes
HMS Cleopatra
Paper Navy of the Bear Flag Republic

P.S. Now quit your arguing...my decision is final...I'm NOT re-re-painting her....GO BUILD SOMETHING! (Sheesh!)

P.P.S. Peter, to answer your questions from about 10 posts ago....1) I think the men probably DRANK the Champagne and *issed on the ship to send her off! (KISSED, KISSED! I meant KISSED! Get you minds out of the gutter!) Sorry, Peter, you can take your crew out of the sewer, but you can't take the sewer out of the crew!) 2) I have heard or read somewhere that the floor of the Ship's Doctor was sometimes painted red to hide the blood so as not to scare the next patient in the waiting room away! Don't know how true that is!
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Maurice

Jim

Cleo's bottom is suspect. Smile
and I reckon a big blank is all we can expect on Cleo specific colour details. See my post of 2003-12-30 7:41 PM for what I think likely.
However,
I can most definitely live with Larry living with his excellent rendition. Smile

Maurice
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By wunwinglow

I visited HMS Victory as a small boy and recalled the guide telling us about the red paint; this site confirms what he told us then:

http://www.stvincent.ac.uk/Heritage/1797/Victory/anchor.html

about 2/3rds down the page.

Hot thread!

Tim, http://www.kipperboxes.co.uk/

[Edited by wunwinglow on 2004-01-04 7:23 AM]

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By maurice

Tim

You have passed in my footsteps then.
Remember I was a little lad before you were. Smile

Jim

About that big blank I reckoned.
The National Maritime Museum, Greenwhich, London has a negative number X2026. a smallish reproduction of which appears on P 52 of "The Campaign of Trafalgar" by Chatham Publishing, London (which may now be defunct),
ISBN 1 86176 028 0
It is a lithograph by a French artist depicting the Ville de Milan, 40 guns, at the moment of driving her bows upon the Cleopatra before boarding. (note, not the Ville de Main, 44 guns, as previously stated by me)
Not definitive of course, indeed it does not correctly depict the amount of rigging that both ships had lost by that stage of the engagement,
But my interpretation is that it supports my view of the probable colour scheme.
But I would say that wouldn't I. Smile

Maurice
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Peter H

How progress in No. 2 dock at Chatham going Gil ?

(whisper)Gee, these Board of Admiralty guys don't muck around when they come down from London to check on progress Smile


Many thanks Larry for the answers and the piccies.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By neoeanderthal

that whip is sposed to be for the horse you got not the dockyard workers......g
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Gil

Peter et al,

Having a bit of a labor problem at Chatham. Seems the hired help is holding out for better medical benefits and negotiations have stalled over extending benefits to cover physical therapy. This is extremely painful for management which is already under Parliaments aim for cost overruns not to mention adequate progress on HMS Victory. New Year budgeting comes into effect on 9 January and will help a great deal in getting the project out of the sling. Meanwhile design on a plucky, World Navigating, Oyster Yawl is underway. Hull design is nearly complete. Anticipated keel laying will be tomorrow. This is a projcet dreamed up by our HR Department as a little something to do by our most loyal employees who have avoided the socialist pleas of the Yard's Labor Council.

Enough for now...,

Best regards, Gil
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By wunwinglow

Hey, I'm building too!
http://www.kipperboxes.co.uk/html/sovremenny.html

But it's plastic, not card. Hangs head in shame.....

Tim
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Larrymax

Captains Log
January 6, 2004
Weather, Fair, Winds steady at 4 knots from the West

Last night and this evening I've been building the Aft Deck Wales up and have begun installing the bulkheads for the Captains Cabin. The Wale bulkheads proved to be over large and required trimming until they fit properly up against the hull sides. Seems to me that the thickness of the deck they called out for needed to be removed from the height of the wales....could be I made the decks a bit too thick, but I'm pretty sure I used the thickness of cardstock they called out. Oh wale! (HA...Look! I made a pun!) All's wale that ends wale...!! (OK...I'm gonna stop now!) (really!). Went in after everything was nice and dry and sanded down the tops of the wales to be parallel with the deck. (should have though of that when I was cutting them out!...oops)



This evening, I've been laying up the formers for the Captain's Cabin. The Assembly diagram and the actual markings on the ship didn't seem to agree, so I looked up the part that will form the cabin wall and dry fit it to see where the formers needed to be. As you can see, there is quite a difference from where the dashed lines indicate the parts should be. The old carpenters addage comes to mind.....measure twice, cut once! (....and it'll probably STILL be wrong!). I decided to add in some extra vertical re-enforcement tabs just to make sure everything stays nice and square to the hull and to offset the abuse I'm bound to give them during handling!



OK. That's it for now. I'm back to building!

Larry
Captain, HMS Cleopatra
Paper Navy of the Bear Flag Republic

P.S. I've been thinking about re-painting the gun port stripe a nice Lime Green. What do you guys think?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By maurice

Larry

What do we think?

That the workmanship is as ever excellent,

but that both the puns and the stirring could well be left to those best able.
Smile Smile Smile

Maurice
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