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To Build A Ship....the HMS Victory and Cleopatra
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Ron
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Gil

Larry,

Shipyard has a definite number system but Roman Numerals must be carefully observed. Dry assembly and close examination before commiting to gluing in place is always a good idea. The old addage "measure twice and cut once, then rip it out cause it still ain't right" is one that I've modified to fit the normal situation in model building. Another is "glue and sleep on it, the mistake will be glaringly obvious in the morning".

Buying line is alright but the improper use of scale in the rigging is generally the biggerst tip off to an amateur job (this is a good place to be a purist as it is in the eye of the beholder and gives either the right or wrong cues when it comes to scale).

Enough for now, have to start scanning some stuff.

Best regards, Gil

[Edited by Gil on 2003-11-19 12:23 AM]

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I Got Carded!

Hello All,

The book "Anatomy Of The Ship; The 100-Gun Ship Victory, Revised Edition" by John McKay arrived today. I cannot say enough good things about it. It details the ship as it was during the Trafalgar period. The line drawings alone are what each and every model designer or builder would ever want. In fact John McKay is a model ship builder and the original stimulus to do this book was the lack of detail information on the subject! I don't think that you need to go any further for a reference if it's your intention to build a model of this World famous vessel.

The cost for the book on Amazon was $30.07 U.S. total (they offer free (but slower delivery time) shipping for any book over $25.00).

Larry, one interesting thing I've picked up from the book is that the shipbuilders built the frames slightly oversized...., they would then trim them to "fair" out the hull before planking began.

Enough for now, got to get back to scanning.

Best regards, Gil

[Edited by Gil on 2003-11-19 12:03 AM]

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I Got Carded!

Hello All,

Finally scanned all of the eggcrate sections for the Victory. Took about 8 full hours of work to complete. Printing and trimming of sections is still continuing. Expect to start cutting tomorrow.

Larry, any more progress?

Best regards, Gil
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Ron
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Larrymax

Well, now that you mention it, Gill!. Here are some progress pics. I've finished the main bulkheads and formers for the hull and assembled the fore sub-assembly to the aft sub-assembly. I didn't care for the way the center boards and the formers just "butt joined", so, to add some strength, I've added some "re-enforcing" strips to the center join locations of both the verticle center board and horizontal formers. I've also made a couple of little "stands" to hold my eggcrate up while I'm working on it. I'll get something a little more substantial shortly, but for now, they do nicely. Next comes lots of "Little Bits" and more Formers to complete the Eggcrate. Everything fits VERY NICELY. Nice tight joins and nice straight hull lines!



I've finished with all the bulkheads now. Just beginning to insert the vertical gunport sides. Found one error I made while attaching the long, thin stringers (the little bits with the brown dashes on them.....I put the "colored" side on the top surface of the top rail! It should have been on the bottom! I figured out, AFTER I inserted the first gunport sides that the colored part on the top rail is supposed to be the top surface of the gunport! Oops! I thought they were the bottom surface of gunports on the main deck! Oh well, no harm, really, I just carefully trimmed the colored piece off the top surface and glued it underneath to complete the gun port. Now I just have to do it for Ohhhhh, about 20 more gunports!!!! I really have to remember to take more time to understand each part before I commit it to glue! Without any instructions to lead the way, silly little errors like this could become a real issue later on!......Just a word to the wise, eh...!

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Ron
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Gil

Larry,

Yeowwh! Gunports already! Looking like a regular ship-o-the-line.

Just finished printing out the scanned eggcrate. Took longer than expected as usual, cleaning up the scans and making them fit on 8.5 x 11 took most of the time. Now to paste and cut.

One thought comes up, are you going to show the ship with gunports open or closed or somewhere in between. The reason is that the interior of open gunports needs to be painted a dark color so the interior doesn't show through as card stock. Also the cannons must be positioned in place making the hull a lot more delicate to handle whilst planking is added. Any thoughts.

Best regards, Gil
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Larrymax

Gil,

Great question! Again, something I hadn't thought about yet, that would have been a "Doh!" somewhere down the line! I want to have all my gun ports in the open position. How about this plan.....I build a little shadow box behind the gun port. Paint the interior all black, then, after I'm done with the planking, I can attach a "dummy" cannon to the back of the shadow box! That way, I don't have to worry about mucking things up!

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Gil

Larry,

Good idea..., are you considering building a mock-up to see how it looks. It's the only way to insure that it will work right.

This has me thinking on the use of the gunport onboard ship. This will have to be researched as I don't believe that the gunports were all open at the same time, as not all the guns were fired in a broadside (overstress the ships sttructure). At other times they were kept closed due to ships water tight integrity issues. Anyone have any firm information of this?

Best regards, Gil
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By rkelterer

hi guys,

very nice idea to build nearly online - only one thing i'm concerned - please think about putting the pictures into an album. even on a fast internet connection the download of all pictures on their full resolution is a heavy load - not to mention a 56k modem .......

keep on building
raimund
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By wunwinglow

Cool thread!!! Can't wait for the next exciting episode!

Tim

PS Has the print-out got the brass plaque screwed to the deck saying 'Nelson Fell Here'? When I was a little lad and being shown around the real HMS Victory, I embarrassed myself by standing on it just as our sailor guide pointed it out to everyone.....

PPS Pics could go in the albums, with a link. Then 56k-ers can pick which pics they want, when they want.
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Lots of Projects, but don't hold your breath....
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Maurice

Fleet actions were rarely entered into in anything but ideal conditions, otherwise they couldn't hit anything.
Entering action all guns, both sides of the ship, would be loaded the ports opened and the guns run out.
If turning to run parallel to the opponent or crossing his path, each gun on the engaged side would be fired only as it bore onto the target thus sequencing the firing.
When already on a parallel course the guns would be fired one after the other in a rapid ripple along all gun decks
In either case the recoil from the broadside was spread out.
Ripple firing would of course also be used when there were targets on both sides.
In individual ship actions in poorer conditions good seamanship was needed to stay on an even keel and keep all the ports open.
Otherwise when at sea ports would normally be closed but could be seen opened in harbour for ventilation, the guns remaining stowed.

Maurice
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Larrymax

Thanks for the insight Maurice. I'm still debating about how many and which ports to leave open or closed. Well, I've made my first little Gun Port Shadow Box, this morning. Here are a couple of pics (VERY OPTIMIZED, VERY SMALL, FILES!! ....@ 4k each!)(sorry, but I really think it's better to have the pics right here to go along with the comments...I hate bouncing around from page to page to see pics, then back to read again. Besides, the Photo Alubums would take just as long, maybe longer to load, as these pics...I'm sorry if it causes problems for some of you...I do my best to make the images VERY SMALL, file size wise). One pic of the assembled box, one showing it dry fitted. To secure it well, I've given the top and bottom a little extra "lip" to attach to the rails. Also, I've made the box slightly larger than the gun port opening to give an illusion of depth. Next, I'll make a "mock cannon" to see how the total effect looks. I'm sure, by the time the port's cover is installed, it'll look just fine, considering the whole port is only about 3/8" square!







P.S. Hey Darwin! Where are you, man? Have you broken out that Constitution, yet? We're waiting!!![/img]
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Gil

Larry,

Nice work! Now put the cannon in...., I have one of those feelings that the cannon, as provided in the kit, won't live up to the minimum level of realism required and will need to be modified.

I am still going through exacto blades, well not exactly, I found that buffing the old exacto blade with a dremel buff wheel spun in "lustre cream" polishing compound puts an incredibly sharp edge on the blade and also has the added benefit of polishing it to a mirror finish. It literaly flows through the illustration board now and I still haven't changed the blade. The Cleopatra has a big advantage on the Victory namely fewer decks and less guns. It's going to take three 22 x 30 inch illutrator boards just to finish the eggcrate alone!

Best regards, Gil

PS I agree about the picture being included along with the update posting. I'll start using it as soon as I figure out how to use my webpage as an interim posting site.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Cap'n Birdseye

Great tip about polishing blades! Thanks Gil, works a treat!

Tim
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Gil

Hello All,

Slogging through the cutting out operation on the eggcrate still....,

Happy to report that my productivity has risen by around 300% after instigating changes in the cutting tool use. In other words I found an easier, and as it works out, much more accurate way to cut out slots (in 1 mm illustrator board). I borrowed a little from Jim Nunn and quickly turned a #11 xacto blade into a 1 mm chisel for cutting the slot ends. The real expediting tool is Friskars microtouch scissors. They are capable of cutting slots up the length of the blade (about 2 inches) and make a very clean end cut at the slot end. Works like magic. So expect pictures of the HMS Victory eggcrate shortly.

Best regards, Gil

[Edited by Gil on 2003-11-28 4:52 PM]

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Darwin

Things have been a bit crazed lately...life keeps getting in the way of the important stuff. If no one else falls off the family tree, I may at least get dug down to the Constitution and get off to a late start. I keep looking at the foamboard in the corner and thinking that would be just the thing for the eggcrate, although will further slow things down by thinking through the best way of compensating for the increased thickness of the building medium. When completed, it should make a pretty stable foundation for the build.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Larrymax

Well, Darwin! Nice to see you back on board! I'm sorry for your loss. My sincere condolences! Personally, I think you're going overboard (pun intended) with the use of foam core (if, indeed, that's what you mean by "foam board") for your eggcrate. Just a bit of overkill, not to mention, like you already have, the inherent difficulties in cutting the stuff to allow for the proper hull shape and thickness. I've worked with the stuff before, it's kind of a bugger. I'd stick to illustration board. Gil, YOU ARE A GENIUS! I actually own a pair of the very same Fiskar's, but never thought about using them to try cutting my illustration board! Oh well, yet ANOTHER lesson learned just a tad too late! If I might ask, how did you create a "Chissel" for the end of the slots out of an exacto blade?

Here are a few pics of my first "test build" (thanks, again, Gil!) of one of my cannons. I've added a bit of detail to the kit supplied pattern, including the "rings" around the cannon barrel, the flaired end of the barrel, and added the little block that they use to raise and lower the angle of the cannon barrel (I don't know the real name of it, though I'm sure someone out there will let me know!), the pivots for the barrel to rest on the carriage and the straps over the top of the pivots. I'm not too happy with the barrel yet, I'd like to see it a little more narrow at the business end, but, the good news is, I have about 20 or so more to make to try to get it JUST RIGHT!!!! TOTAL BUILD TIME FOR 1 CANNON: 6 HOURS! Gil, I do NOT envy you and all the cannons on the Victory! Good luck, brother!



P.S. Did you guys see the nice model of the Vasa posted in the gallery! Good job, whoever you are....how about jumping into our forum, here, with some tips!, eh!
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By Gil

Larry,

Nice cannon..., it's big enough to put a hole in a penny. Yeah, that's kind of why I asked, 6 x 104 = 624 hours! That's a lot of time, like around 78, 8 hour days so either the build time is reduced to something like 20 minutes or less each or I'm going for take out. I think some more work needs to be done in this area nonetheless. One redeeming item is that only the deck guns need full detail (like the tackle that also accompanies each). The rest just need to look like the real thing when they are stuck out the gun ports. An interesting fact is that merchantmen would paint dummy gun ports on there vessels in an attempt to make it look more heavily armed than it was to pirates and privateers.

The chisel edge blade was made from a rusty old #11 I had laying around. I simply used a Dremel cutoff wheel to cut off the tip about a 6 mm up and then ground the chisel width to 1 mm and a approximately 4 mm long. The edge was then ground and sharpened via the Dremel buff wheel with buffing compound method. Works in a cheap Xacto handle and saves a chisel type blade. Nunn made his out of several Xacto chisel blades. I guess I'll make a set eventually but found this fast, cheap, and expedient and besides it works just great (didn't bother to knock the rust off but that's an aesthetic thing).

For the record the idea of using the Friskars microtouch micro shears for slot work didn't occur to me until after the 7th bulkhead and my right forefinger started losing all feeling from cutting illustrator board. I think I was doing what I do best, absolutely nothing, when the idea came to me to use the friskars for the length and the ground chisel edge for the end cut. A few minutes in the morning and voila! An accelerated and more accurate bulkhead production method. They still have to be cut out of the illustrator board but that's relatively minor compared to the number of slots required. I've got a strange feeling that a lot of cardmodelers are going out and buy a pair over the next several days. At least any that've had to make any sort of eggcrate for model assembly.

Enough for now.

Best regards, Gil
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