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Ron Site
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Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:45 pm Post
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By maurice
>>I'll be quiet if you'd enlighten us as to what
information was misinforming.<<
Frankly I
doubt it. However, to cover one point. Your source's
ideas on the "fad" colouring of RN ships prior to 1815 is
absolute drivel. The scheme to be used was specified in
Admiralty instructions. There were variations in
implementation of the pattern and in the tonal qualities due
to availability of paint and weathering. To be of value
research needs to be with reference to, and involve the
interpretation of, multiple sources. Some sources should
be discarded on sight. In fact we only
have reliable information on how most ships were coloured that
covers the last 50 years, and even then colour photography can
let us down badly.
Jim
Not sure of the
exact date by which the colour scheme had been settled on, but
as she spanned the period 1781 to 1814 Cleopatra was I suspect
copper sheathed from the start and basically would have
carried the paint scheme throughout her life.
Much of
interest at http://www.hms-victory.com/home.htm (who
also seem to have heard of the USS Constitution. ) http://www.hms-victory.com/modelmakers.htm
click on Colour Scheme for HMS Victory
And no,
I don't claim to know all the answers - I wasn't there.
Maurice
Oh, and here's a simpler paper
model for the "Victory" challenged http://www.nmm.ac.uk/site/navId/00500300l00a001 | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:45 pm Post
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By Gil
To All,
Originally written by maurice on 2004-01-03 8:03
PM
>>I'll be quiet if you'd enlighten us as to
what information was misinforming.<<
Frankly
I doubt it. However, to cover one point. Your source's
ideas on the "fad" colouring of RN ships prior to 1815 is
absolute drivel.
The quote comes from John McKay's
book, The 100-Gun Ship Victory, Revised Edition, Published by
Conway Maritime Press, 2000, page 12, Decoration, paragrah 5,
"Prior to 1815, painting the hulls of ships was pretty much
determined by the whim and resources of her commander. At
Trafalgar, Vitory's hull was black with three continous
streaks of bright yellow running roughly between her wales.
Her gunports were painted red inside, as were the insides of
the gunport lids.".
Just can't depend on anything
printed on paper anymore I guess...,
Best regards, Gil
[Edited by Gil on 2004-01-04 12:31 AM]
----- I Got Carded! | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:46 pm Post
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By cardfan
This has
been an interesting thread and informative build, could we get
back to enjoying the art in progress? I know that there are
always differing opinions as to the "facts" reguarding
historical objects, but is it that important in this forum?
Just a question.
Glen | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:46 pm Post
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By jimkrauzlis
Thanks
so much, Maurice! I didn't notice any copper sheathing on
the Cleopatra model, at least none that I could tell from the
photos I have seen; it seems the kit designers have opted for
a tallow bottom coating. This suggests the publisher was
following an earlier scheme before copper was commonly used,
which I believe to be from around 1775 or later. I tried to
find some specific color scheme info on Cleo and drew a big
blank. I understand the British warships prior to 1798 or
thereabouts generally painted their hulls yellow ochre with
black wales, with white or coppered bottoms below the
waterline; whether or not this was mandated by the Admiralty,
I don't know, nor do I know whether some Captains did not
follow the scheme because of supply problems, weathering or
whim. I suppose the important question for this thread,
however, is what color scheme should be used for Cleo. I would
think yellow ochre above the wales, black wales and either
copper or white below the waterline. Yep, that's a
generalization, but I have seen nothing to give more specific
guidance for this particular vessel. Are there any Admiralty
instructions for, say, the 1780's that might guide us further?
And, yes, I suspect the Admiralty had heard of
Constitution. I recall Nelson had a chance to see Constitution
on her return from the Barbary Wars, around 1805 or so,
commenting on her fine lines and lamenting the British would
one day have to face them in battle. Jim | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:47 pm Post
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By maurice
Gil
>>painting the hulls of ships was pretty much
determined by the whim and resources of her commander<<
I certainly don't blame John McKay for not including
the caveat "within guidelines" at that point. It would be an
overlong and boring book if he had to cover every possible
miss-interpretation of what he wrote. Black with yellow
banding was the standard not the vogue. Painting of details
(and bandwidth) might vary. "Think about that a little
harder" (as our bundle dropping low flying hampster might say
).
The ships at Trafalgar were in effect a random selection
from the Royal Navy. None arrived on the scene with pink polka
dots. (Or if they did, artists of the time failed to record
it.) But I agree with Glen.
Maurice | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:51 pm Post
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By Larrymax
Well,
well, well. Quit the little discussion we have goin on out
here on the poop deck! After listening to all your thoughts
(and I do appreciate all the input!), I've come to a decision
on Cleo's color scheme. I did a little of my own research over
at Model Expo and had a look at the British ships from around
the same time as Cleo....Here's what I found:
HMS Bounty
HMS
Halifax
HMS Victory
HMS Unicorn
The way I figure is that the
people who built these ships had a lot more time and resources
than I have and did a lot of research and came up with the
conclusion that yellow ochre stripes were all the rage for
English Men-o-War of that era.....so, who am I...sitting here
in my kitchen in Corona, to argue! Besides, I LIKE the color
scheme....it makes my model look NICE....SO THERE! Where the
designers over at Shipyard got the brown color as shown on the
cover is anyone's guess!
So, I spent last night, a bit
of this morning, and most of this afternoon and evening
sanding and puttying and re-painting Cleo.....!!! Thank you
for all your input and research on the subject! Now, without
further ado.....I am proud to present HMS Cleopatra
(again)....
HMS Cleopatra
Larry Captain and Holder of the
Paintbrushes HMS Cleopatra Paper Navy of the Bear Flag
Republic
P.S. Now quit your arguing...my decision is
final...I'm NOT re-re-painting her....GO BUILD SOMETHING!
(Sheesh!)
P.P.S. Peter, to answer your questions from
about 10 posts ago....1) I think the men probably DRANK the
Champagne and *issed on the ship to send her off! (KISSED,
KISSED! I meant KISSED! Get you minds out of the gutter!)
Sorry, Peter, you can take your crew out of the sewer, but you
can't take the sewer out of the crew!) 2) I have heard or read
somewhere that the floor of the Ship's Doctor was sometimes
painted red to hide the blood so as not to scare the next
patient in the waiting room away! Don't know how true that
is! | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:51 pm Post
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By Maurice
Jim
Cleo's bottom is suspect. and I reckon a big
blank is all we can expect on Cleo specific colour details.
See my post of 2003-12-30 7:41 PM for what I think likely.
However, I can most definitely live with Larry living
with his excellent rendition.
Maurice | |
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Ron Site
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:52 pm Post
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By maurice
Tim
You have passed in my footsteps then. Remember I
was a little lad before you were.
Jim
About that big blank I reckoned. The National
Maritime Museum, Greenwhich, London has a negative number
X2026. a smallish reproduction of which appears on P 52 of
"The Campaign of Trafalgar" by Chatham Publishing, London
(which may now be defunct), ISBN 1 86176 028 0 It is a
lithograph by a French artist depicting the Ville de Milan, 40
guns, at the moment of driving her bows upon the Cleopatra
before boarding. (note, not the Ville de Main, 44 guns, as
previously stated by me) Not definitive of course, indeed
it does not correctly depict the amount of rigging that both
ships had lost by that stage of the engagement, But my
interpretation is that it supports my view of the probable
colour scheme. But I would say that wouldn't I.
Maurice | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:53 pm Post
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By Peter H
How
progress in No. 2 dock at Chatham going Gil ?
(whisper)Gee, these Board of Admiralty guys don't muck
around when they come down from London to check on progress
Many thanks Larry for the answers and the
piccies. | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:53 pm Post
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By neoeanderthal
that
whip is sposed to be for the horse you got not the dockyard
workers......g | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:53 pm Post
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By Gil
Peter et al,
Having a bit of a labor problem at Chatham. Seems the
hired help is holding out for better medical benefits and
negotiations have stalled over extending benefits to cover
physical therapy. This is extremely painful for management
which is already under Parliaments aim for cost overruns not
to mention adequate progress on HMS Victory. New Year
budgeting comes into effect on 9 January and will help a great
deal in getting the project out of the sling. Meanwhile design
on a plucky, World Navigating, Oyster Yawl is underway. Hull
design is nearly complete. Anticipated keel laying will be
tomorrow. This is a projcet dreamed up by our HR Department as
a little something to do by our most loyal employees who have
avoided the socialist pleas of the Yard's Labor Council.
Enough for now...,
Best regards, Gil -----
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:54 pm Post
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By wunwinglow
Hey,
I'm building too! http://www.kipperboxes.co.uk/html/sovremenny.html
But it's plastic, not card. Hangs head in shame.....
Tim ----- Lots of Projects, but don't hold
your breath.... | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:56 pm Post
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By Larrymax
Captains
Log January 6, 2004 Weather, Fair, Winds steady at 4
knots from the West
Last night and this evening I've
been building the Aft Deck Wales up and have begun installing
the bulkheads for the Captains Cabin. The Wale bulkheads
proved to be over large and required trimming until they fit
properly up against the hull sides. Seems to me that the
thickness of the deck they called out for needed to be removed
from the height of the wales....could be I made the decks a
bit too thick, but I'm pretty sure I used the thickness of
cardstock they called out. Oh wale! (HA...Look! I made a pun!)
All's wale that ends wale...!! (OK...I'm gonna stop now!)
(really!). Went in after everything was nice and dry and
sanded down the tops of the wales to be parallel with the
deck. (should have though of that when I was cutting them
out!...oops)
This evening, I've been laying up the
formers for the Captain's Cabin. The Assembly diagram and the
actual markings on the ship didn't seem to agree, so I looked
up the part that will form the cabin wall and dry fit it to
see where the formers needed to be. As you can see, there is
quite a difference from where the dashed lines indicate the
parts should be. The old carpenters addage comes to
mind.....measure twice, cut once! (....and it'll probably
STILL be wrong!). I decided to add in some extra vertical
re-enforcement tabs just to make sure everything stays nice
and square to the hull and to offset the abuse I'm bound to
give them during handling!
OK. That's it
for now. I'm back to building!
Larry Captain, HMS
Cleopatra Paper Navy of the Bear Flag Republic
P.S. I've been thinking about re-painting the gun port
stripe a nice Lime Green. What do you guys think? | |
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Ron Site
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Posted: Sat Jan
24, 2004 9:56 pm Post
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By maurice
Larry
What do we think?
That the workmanship is as
ever excellent,
but that both the puns and the
stirring could well be left to those best able.
Maurice | |
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